At the Jewish Table with Hélène Jawhara Piñer

Today we are joined by Hélène Jawhara Piñer to discuss her research at the intersection of food and history and how what we eat—and what we’re not allowed to eat—can actually tell a deeper story about the world. Hélène’s work helps us understand how Jewish dietary practices were used to target and isolate Jews, and how in the present day we can still see echoes of that historical exclusion through attacks on Jewish, Israeli, and kosher spaces.

Chapter Breakdown:

• :00 - Introduction and welcome
• 1:00 - Who Spanish Jews are
• 2:52 - What the Spanish Inquisition was
• 9:48 - Food as a centerpiece of culture, identity, and politics
• 12:00 - What role food played for Converso and Crypto- Jews
• 19:14 - Persecuting Jews through food
• 27:34 - The targeting of Jewish, Israeli, and kosher spaces today 

Resources:

• https://helenejawharapiner.com/ 

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Translations is a new initiative from Project Shema exploring how we can approach complex issues with nuance and empathy. Through conversations with leading academics, practitioners, and community voices, this podcast invites listeners to learn alongside us as we translate big questions into deeper understanding. http://projectshema.org/translations

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to Translations. Today is Wednesday, April 29th, 2026, and we're joined by Helen Jahara Pinnier to discuss her research at the intersection of food and history, and how what we eat or are not allowed to eat can actually tell a deeper story about the world. Food is often where culture, memory, and belonging come alive. It can be a source of joy and connection, like times around the Seder table and the work that she does with chefs like Michael Solomonov. But history also shows that food can become a tool for exclusion. Helen's work helps us understand how Jewish dietary practices were used to target and isolate Jews, specifically in Spain, and how in the present day we can still see echoes of those historical exclusions and attacks on Jewish Israeli inkosher spaces. So we're thrilled that she's here today to give us a deeper dive on that history. Helen, thank you so much for being here and let's dive in.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

We just want to start by talking about who Spanish Jews are, really, and in particular converso Jews or crypto Jews, because they're gonna be sort of like a big character in this story. And can you just like assume we don't know anything about Jews in Spain, or maybe we don't know that there have ever even been Jews in Spain? What are sort of the important things that we have to know about Jews in Spain?

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Well, uh it's really it's very interesting. I think you're right. The the this is the starting point. If the starting point, if you want to talk about the Jews of Spain and the conversion Jews and the Sephardim, really, we really want to know what is the right definition for this. So, you know, the Jews of Spain are the Jews who have been living in Spain since the very first time. The first people who were thinking in only one god were the Jews when they settled in Spain in the first, second century. So they were so the Jews of Spain. And as Spain is uh the Hebrew word for Spain is Sefarad. So then, since 1492, if we wanted to refer to the Jews of Spain, so we used the term sefardi or sefardim to refer to the Jews of Spain since 1492 onwards, but not only for the Jews of Spain, but also the Jews of Spain and the diaspora. And because of the context and the history when the Jews of Spain had to hide their practices, because mainly under the Inquisition period that started in the 15th century, so they became converso-Jews or crypto-Jewish persons. So that means that they had to hide their practices and their Jewishness because they could not practice Judaism openly, so they said they converted to Christianism, but officially, but non-officially. They were still, you know, Jews.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Can you say more about just like what the Inquisition was and why they had to do that really quickly before they move like before we move on to some other stuff?

SPEAKER_02 3:00

Yeah. Well, the Inquisition is the the legal holy office that totally changed the life, the lives of the Jews. So so it's it's a tribunal, it's a court, in fact, it's a legal court created in 1478 by the Catholic monarchs, and the goal of the Inquisition court was to identify the Jewish families, or mainly the conversal families. So the Inquisition was against the conversos, so the Jews who pretended to be real great Christians, but they were not.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

So we I feel like there's times when we think about the Inquisition as a singular event and not as a process that took place over many years, if you can kind of expand on that too.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yes, you're right. I think people when it's when they say, well, this happened under the Inquisition or something like that, they really think that it's just like it's just one thing, but it's totally different. So it's crazy because the Inquisition is this legal court that was created so in 1478, but only started to sentence the conversators in 1481. But this lasted for a so long time because the end the officially the end of the Inquisition is the beginning of the 19th century. So all what happened during 1481 to the beginning of the 19th century in Spain was under and all the things that were related to the Jews and the Crypto Jews and the Conversal Jews. So all those things happened under the Inquisition, under the Inquisition period. So very long during, very long time, a very bad time for the Jews to live under, you know, so many centuries of persecution.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Why were there conversos prior to that? Because I think I've like, it's always been confusing to me of like, well, it was the Inquisition that created the converso Jews or the need for Jews to hide their identity, as opposed to like the Inquisition discovering people who were already hiding their identity. So what like what is some of that history before then?

SPEAKER_02 5:15

Well, in fact, you know, the Jews were the first in Spain in the Iberian Peninsula in the first, second century. And then, if we just talk, I mean, in the religious perspective, talking about Christians and talking about Muslims, so they were already like small Christian communities also under the domination of the Roman Empire in the Iberian Peninsula, and then came the Muslim in the 8th century. But the issue is that all the rulers of the Iberian Peninsula they did not like the presence of the Jews. So the Roman Empire, uh the Witigot, and then not mainly there were not a lot of big deals for the Jewish people between the 8th and the 10th century in Spain. It was more or less like not, I'm gonna I'm not gonna say cool, but it was not that bad. Cool.

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Cool for Jews in comparison. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:12

Well, well, you know, also in the 11th century, we have this very big program that happened in Granada. So, anyway, in short, Jews have been living in Spain since the second century, first second century, and everybody knew about this. But so the Inquisition is not, we have to understand the Inquisition and the creation of the Inquisition, like the final process of the creation and the recognition of anti-Semitism in Spain. So there were already anti-Judaism in Spain since the fourth century, and then it was worse and worse and worse and worse. And when the Catholics mora created the Inquisition, it's like the consequences. It's like the consequence of all what the things happened before this, and then this lasted for a long time. But it's not something that was totally invented without, you know, without any previous um situations. So there were already a lot of issues for the rulers in Spain before the creation of the Inquisition, but the Catholics moral just thought, okay, we have to end with this. So they're creating the Inquisition.

SPEAKER_00 7:27

Got it. So that history of anti-Semitism created the or the of anti-Jewish prejudice created this reality where Jews needed to pretend to be Christians in order to protect their own safety.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yes, obviously, nobody wants to hide. So everybody, Jews, if you are Jew, if you are a Muslim, if you even anyway, so if we what everybody wants is just to live openly. So obviously, they were not very happy if they had to hide. There was a reason for this. So they had to hide because they could not survive, they could not live openly. So their faith was the strongest thing. They could have just converted and stopped practicing Judaism, but they became crypto-Jews or conversal Jews, and they had to hide because what they really wanted to do is to continue to practice Judaism. This was the main thing. So the option was just hiding.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Were there impacts or implications for the Muslims that were living in the area too? A lot did a lot of that happen also with pushing out of um Muslims in the area too, right? When the Spanish Empire Sorry, let me not pretend like I have a history degree, but no, but you you no, I'm I mean, no, that's you're correct.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

That's totally correct. That's totally fine. So the Inquisition was created to sentence and to identity to identify and to sentence the crypto Jews, but the Muslims were also targeted by the Inquisition. It's just that it was not like the same level. Okay. But there is also a big difference because the Jews of Spain has been the decree of the Alombra, so the official decree of the expulsion of Spain dates back to 1492. At the opposite, the Muslims were allowed to stay in Spain until 1609. So it's like a big, big, big difference. And there were also a lot of differences because the Jews were not allowed to take their belongings with them if they wanted, if they just decided to leave Spain. And it was not the case for the Muslims. The Muslims could just keep all their belongings and also part of their houses and everything. So the perspective is totally different, but also the reason why they expelled the Muslims and the Jews is also totally different. But they were also targeted by the Inquisition, but not at the same extent.

SPEAKER_01 9:45

Right. Okay. Thank you for sharing that history. So interesting.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Can we talk about the food though?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

Yeah. But the food though. Oh yeah. So I'm wondering, you know, you have this beautiful combination of food and history and diet and what we can learn and understand about food as culture and even what you've said about food as identity. And so just wanting to like hear you talk about that a bit and how that plays a role in this story as well.

SPEAKER_02 10:12

Well, I think we can start with my own perspective of this. So obviously, food is part, well, food is part of the life of everybody. I'm sure you like food and maybe you like cooking. We love cooking. We love cooking.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

We're like, we talk Kara and I talk about food all the time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:27

All the time. So that the best. I think that food lovers are the best person.

SPEAKER_00 10:31

I was just describing actually this morning, I was just describing to Kara a meal that I had last week. Like literally just doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:39

Well, I think that at the very beginning, when I just started thinking about starting my career in food and food and history, obviously I did not expect to find this deep connection between food and identity. I knew about this because everybody knows that food is also identity. But what I discovered is that food is not only identity, it's also politics. So that's why, in fact, talking about food, you know, it's not super easy. And sometimes this leads to very complex situations and issues. Because when you talk about food, you talk about yourself, you talk about your culture, you talk about your religion, and you talk also about politics because politics is so involved in food. So nobody, it seems like nobody just gets this, but food is so politics. And I think even more nowadays, with what is happening, it's just totally crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:40

Well, and I think that's right, right? Like how personal food can feel, and so how we can react at any conversations around food and how deeply tied it is to family history or how a family may have prepared something or something like that. But you're bringing up another good point of also how food can be political. And so, in the case of the kind of going back to that historical context, can you say more about how food specifically was playing a role for the converso Jews and crypto Jews?

SPEAKER_02 12:09

Well, I think maybe we could start thinking about how food was totally linked to identity already in the 13th century in Spain. For example, you have this very old cookbook from the 13th century. It's the oldest one from the West. It's really the oldest one. I've been working on this manuscript um when I was during the two first years of my PhD. It's a cookbook written in Arabic, 462 recipes, and I discovered that in this cookbook there were six explicitly Jewish recipes. I was just it was just so crazy because it was the very first one and it was the evidence that in the 13th century in Spain Jews were cooking, but also that the others, I mean the non-Jewish people, were also recognizing a Jewish cuisine. So they were recognizing the Jews thanks to what they were cooking and what they were eating already in the third in the 13th century. So for the one for you know the people who say, well, there is no Jewish cuisine, Jewish cuisine is only, you know, appropriation. This is totally false. Because already in the 13th century, non-Jewish people were identifying Jews for their cuisine, not for only their food consumptions, but also for their cuisine. So I think that food is totally uh is deeply rooted in identity, and this so starting in the 13th century when you know the things started to be very bad because a very dogmatic vision of Islam from the Berber dynasty just started to rule the country, and things started to be very bad. So what happened after, and it was obviously totally worse than this, in the 15th century. So the the Catholics just started to rule the countries, the Iberian Peninsula in Spain, and they say, okay, we all know what the Jews used to eat. They loved eggplant, they loved garlic, they love olive oil, they love cilantro. So what are we, the Catholics, going to do? We are going to erase all this because we want new unification and we want to unify Spain under one flag, Catholicism. But Catholicism is just like a religion. But what they did is that they erased, they removed all the things that belong to the Mosaic people, so the Jews. So when they started to write cookbooks, cookbooks written under Christian domination, they removed all the eggplants. They used lard everywhere instead of olive oil. They just criticized all the food practices of the Jews when they were using garlic and frying garlic into olive oil. And they just erased everything that was dealing with cilantro and they just substitute it with parsley. So this is like maybe the first and the more relevant evidence that food has been used and is still used as a tool to unify uh for for sharing and um one point of view, you know? And this was already the case in the 15th century. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:40

I want to pick up the like lard olive oil thing really quickly, just to make sure it's like super duper clear. Because I think I've like I am pretty sure I understand what you're talking about, and I'm not like I just wanna. So Jews won't use lard, even the converso Jews, right? Like these are people who are Jewish and pretending to be Christians, and but because they're Jewish, they won't use lard because it's a pork product and it violates the kosher dietary restrictions or their their cultural kosher dietary practice. They're using olive oil as a fat in their cooking instead of lard, and now it's getting switched to lard and that's okay, got it. I so I just want to make-yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:14

Yes, well, in that extent, this is true. I mean, um it it it would be it would be totally wrong to say, okay, even during the Inquisition, uh so the Jews, the conversations were very fervent Jews, so they refused to eat lard and they refused to eat pork. Yes, when they could do this, this is what they did, but sometimes it was not possible, you know. So that's why to be a Jew is very complex. So there is not only one thing that defines you as a Jew, even more when we are talking about the Sephardic Jews. So, for example, I've been working on a trial. Uh, when I got this fellowship from the University of Pennsylvania, I have been working on like an unknown Inquisition trial from the city of Toledo in Spain that dates back to the beginning uh of the 16th century. And it's a story of a woman. Uh, and this woman, she's a just a wonderful woman. She has her husband, she has kids, but the issue is that she has been denounced by her servant and the neighbors because she is a crypto Jew. And so I've been learning about her life and how she can manage everything because it seems that her husband is not aware about about the fact that she is a crypto Jew. So he for him, it's like he married an old Christian, but she's not an old Christian at all. If you just read the trial, so you can easily understand that she is totally a conversation. Oh wow. And this woman she explains or she says that she tells the inquisitors that we learned that for sometime on the table you have this big plate, and on one side of the plate, there is, I don't know, maybe chicken, and on the other side of the plate you can find lard. So she explains that in the same plate you have both things that she really tries to separate, like the the best she can do it, because when her husband invites guests for dinner, if there is no lard in the plate, she would have been denounced. So, you know, this does not mean that conversions did not have pork or lard home at that time, but they just try to avoid it the best they could.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Right. Can you name her? Can we just put her name into the the space? Do you remember her name?

SPEAKER_02 18:45

So her name is Elvira del Campo, and uh we know that she has been denounced for being a conversator, a conversa, and we also know thanks to thanks to the first page of the trial, that she has been tortured. And she also gave birth into the jail. So, and I'm still working on this trial. I'm gonna publish my research. I'm I hope next year. But it's a crazy, crazy situation.

SPEAKER_00 19:15

I mean, I have to reframe my question now because I was gonna go back, like I want to go back in the history a little bit because you mentioned to us the other day when we were talking that going back to sort of this idea of like food and identity and exclusion is what I wanted to say. That like all the way back in the 600s, I think 613 is the year that you said was sort of like the first time that Jews had been identified for their food practices historically. And I need to reframe because I like I was gonna say, like, to exclude or other or isolate Jews in some way, but what you just described goes much beyond that, which is you know, sort of like direct violence and and physical violence in real ways, and like I don't want to understate that, but like it sounds like in Spain there's actually centuries of the identification of Jews for this purpose, even before the Inquisition.

SPEAKER_02 19:59

Totally, since the fourth century. Since the fourth century, you have the Council of Elvira, so this Council of Elvira uh in 306, and in this council we can read that commensality was totally forbidden between Christian and Jews. I mean commensality is the fact to eat together. So, in in at the very beginning, so it's this means under the Roman Empire, it was already forbidden for Christians and Jews to eat together, not to go to the church together, not to go outside for the world together. The most important is commensality. So everything which is related to food, and I mean, and this is totally logical for them at that time because when you talk about commensality, you talk about sharing a moment, and during this moment you share food. So you share a moment talking to with the others, and you share a moment where you are eating the same food as the person who is seated just next to you. So at the very beginning of the fourth century, this was forbidden between Christians and Jews already under the Roman Empire domination in Spain. And then obviously, when the Jews were expelled from Jerusalem in 135, Most and other people, other Jews arrived in Spain. Okay, so since this time onwards, so after 306, and obviously since the king of the Visigoth converted, so he converted in 587. Since this king, uh Recared, converted to Christianism, everything started to change because in 613, what he did, he decided to force the Jews. Uh we call with this is called the oath of abjuration. So he decided to force. The Jews to baptism and also everything, every relation between Jews and Muslims was totally forbidden. So commensality, obviously. But not only this. For example, for any transaction, business transaction, the Jews were forced to eat, and I'm quoting forbidden food, food forbidden by the Jewish laws. And they were forced to do this in front of a witness, a Christian witness. So they were also forced to stop eating their own Jewish dishes. So everything is related to food. And then even if we just move forward, you have 1492, and in 1492, you also have in the edict of expulsion, which is like a legal document. So what food? No, why food is mentioned in this legal document of the ex of the expulsion of Spain of the Jews? Well, guess what? In this decree, it's written that the Jews should stop eating their own dishes like Adafina and also stop forcing the Christians to fast their own Jewish fasts. They also have to stop to um push the Christians to celebrate Passover, and they have also to stop uh to making matzah and living it bread. So and this is in a legal document, which is in fact officially only related to the reason why they were expelled. But we have food inside. So this proved that food is stuck in politics.

SPEAKER_01 23:40

Yeah. You know, the power of telling the history through food, it's so interesting because even listening to you talk, it's like that idea of bringing someone into your home, wanting to cook for them, wanting to share your practices with them and build community in that way. And what does it mean if something like that is outlawed? That is one thing to read it, but another thing because we're you're using the device of food, I can see myself at the table and not being able to share something, um, right, that you like spent all day making or something like that. And and even where we started at the top, a shift in cookbooks of where these recipes used to be could be held together in that space and then couldn't be. And I my question is to your point about food being politics, like just how much was that was access to food and or the recipes that were being distributed by the state? Like, just how much was the state trying to dictate and control exclusion through food?

SPEAKER_02 24:40

I mean a lot. I mean it was deeply rooted in the food practice. I mean, if you have a look to the Inquisition trials, uh, Inquisition trials, mainly those from the Iberian Peninsula, but also those from Mexico and the New World. Okay, because we all know that uh in 1492, even if the Jews were totally forbidden to cross the Atlantic, because obviously, as a Catholic small, they were totally afraid about you know the spread of Judaism, so they've totally forbade Muslims and Jews to just to cross the Atlantic, but we all know that this happened. Anyway, so if you have a look into those Inquisition trials, you would be totally amazed about the amount of evidences that use food as a way to identify the conversal families. Obviously, you have other evidences like okay, this woman has been denounced because she has um someone saw her um bringing some olive oil to the synagogue for lighting the candles, or because she we saw her praying in Hebrew or reading in Hebrew or doing things in relation with you know Judaism. But this is, I'm not gonna say a small part, but it's like it's like less important than the evidences that are related to the food practices of the conversed Jews. But it's not logical. You eat like maybe one or twice a day. So if if you want just to to understand who is that person, just check what is this person cooking. Right. But this would be like you can tell me, okay, okay, so this may be the case for everyone. I'm gonna tell you, yes, you're right. But the difference and the big difference is that for the crypto Jews, obviously it's important uh what they were eating and the way they were eating it even more. But the fact that what they avoid eating is more important. For example, you have a trial that said that what the inquisitors just wanted is that the crypto juice to reveal that they were fasting, so not eating. So they have been targeting, targeting the crypto juice until they say, Okay, I was fasting, I have been fasting three days a week. So it's not in relation with food consumption, it's avoiding food. The fact that you were avoiding food because it was for the salvation of your soul, because it was because you were afraid, for any because you wanted to be pregnant. Anyway, this uh those are different uh reasons why the crypto Jews were fasting, and they were fasting a lot, and the more feared they were, the more fasting they were doing, the more fast they were having. Oh wow. So obviously, hiding and avoiding were signs of markers of Jewish food practices.

SPEAKER_00 27:35

Your research, like there's one more piece of this that is really, really important to me, which is like what's happening in contemporary times and like in our own times and spaces. And like there's sort of two pieces here that I think it's really important to tie together. One is just this sort of like historic backdrop and context of identifying Jews based on food practice and discriminating against Jews based on food practice, and then like the relationship with that to the identification of Jewish Israeli kosher restaurants today for targeting inviolence. And I I would just love to hear your reflections on that and how you see those things as related.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Well, this is a very interesting point. I really loved making some research on this point, and it was it when I have to admit that this upset me. I was so upset about being able to trace back this very uh deep problem from in Spain from the third century onwards, because it's like nothing has changed. I may be exaggerating a bit, but it's like this. We we we we started with anti-Judaism to anti-Semitism. But in fact, for the for the one who say, Oh, okay, there is no anti-Semitism in Spain, uh, and even less through food, what? I can prove you that you're wrong, okay? Because you know, as an historian, I'm only working on the sources, and you know, it's not a question of my own point of view, it's a question of the sources. So the sources say that from legal treaties to uh to judicial documents to proverb to literature to phraseology, so you can just follow the story of from anti-Judaism to anti-Semitism in Spain. So obviously now it's like the the result, what is happening today between food and Jewish identity in restaurants, it's like totally logical what is happening because Spain is so deeply, unfortunately, deeply connected to a normalization and stigmatization and banalization of anti-Semitism through food that what is happening happening today is not surprising. So we have this mix of different thoughts. I mean, people just don't want some time to make the difference between uh kosher restaurant, Jewish identity, Jews, Israel. So it's like a big bag. And they are not, they don't want just to try to understand the thing. So maybe because there we there is this turning point, we have to say there is this turning point since October 7th, this like just became like totally crazy. But maybe we can say, okay, before this October 7th, maybe people, some of the people were not aware about what is a Jew or what is a step party, or the big difference, the difference in between Israeli and between Jews and everything. But now people know. And if they continue to do this, you know, they do it on purpose. You mean you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah, can we talk about like what there's one thing that you talk about in your paper, which we'll publish eventually. I'd like for folks who are listening. But like, so uh, and that'll be like I'm sure that'll I don't know if this will go in the podcast or whatever in the show notes later, but like the paper will be available for people to read. But like you talk about some things that happened in Barcelona in particular and sort of like the more systemic mapping and identification of kosher Jewish restaurants supermarkets. And can you just like say more about what happened?

SPEAKER_02 31:18

Yes. So this was in December 31, so the last day of December of 2025. So there is this um French platform that uh in fact created a map in Barcelona, in Catalonia and the you know, this region. And uh this was uh this is a collaborative map that has been created and which is in relation to the Zionist economy in uh Barcelona. So this collaborative map, I think what the I don't know what is the most crazy part, if it's the map or the collaborative map, because I think the that the fact that it's a collaborative map, it's makes the thing even just craziest, you know.

SPEAKER_00 32:04

Because anyone can anyone can add to it, basically.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah, so this is this means that anyone can add to it, but the worst is anyone could be interested in adding something. It's not something that you are just okay, I'm gonna have a look into this. It's just I'm gonna add something, a new element. And this is for me totally, totally I I do not understand. So this map, this map has been created by a French-based platform, and the idea was to show in this map all the places in relation with a Zionist economy, and this project is is entitled Barcelona's like Naz from the Nazi. So so this was the evidence of the behavior and the thoughts, the way of thinking of some of the people there, but not only from Barcelona, because it could be people from everywhere in Spain mainly. So they decided just to target and to highlight some points like schools, restaurants, everything which which was in relation with Zionism. So creating this collaborative map was a way for people who wanted to show their hatred against the Jews, so it makes the things very easy for them, and no problem with this. So totally disgusting.

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Right, and they're the right the the the criteria is we're actually identifying Jewish schools, Jewish restaurants.

SPEAKER_02 33:36

Exactly. So this is pure anti-Semitism when you highlight, when you decide, when you decide to highlight something because it's in relation with the Jewish people, so not so Jewish people. So this is pure anti-Semitism. So I was shocked.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

Yeah, I I think that was uh definitely a a light bulb aha moment that I feel like we both had, Eli, when we read your paper. Because I don't think we, you know, we would we think about when a kosher deli or a restaurant is targeted and the ways in which that is targeting Jews, but I I don't think I ever would have thought about the history that that taps into as well, and the history of that practice of wanting to control or intimidate or exclude access to Jewish food. It's just it's so much deeper than I ever realized.

SPEAKER_02 34:32

Yeah, but if you step back into history, there is nothing surprising, unfortunately, because the history of the Jews in Spain is not something which is taught at school. So you have like it's a very short part in the program of the education of the of the of the of the students and of the pupils in a middle high school, in high school. But it honestly, I am also a teacher in France, uh in high school. I teach also Spanish in high school, and you would be shocked about the lack of knowledge of the of the of the of the students, of the of the pupils concerning uh the history of the Jews. They know absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing. So what is happening actually in Spain is just is just you know the what is happening, what happened just a lot of centuries, a long centuries before is just continuing. There is nothing which is changing, it's just normalization when you have proverbs that say, okay, oh you know what, they are when just instead of saying Jews are everywhere, Jews are ruling Spain, Jews are everywhere and they are ruling everything, they just say because the word the word Jew in Spanish, the word the term is judío, and judío which also means judía, which is this also means beans. So the way to say there are beans everywhere, it's also it's the same way to say there are Jews everywhere. So everything is just hidden. It's not before it was hidden. So this anti-Semitism was hidden behind proverbs and like regular things. Um you have some proverbs, different disgusting proverbs in Spanish that say that uh in your house you don't you don't want no Jews and no hum because this means that you are disgusting or something like this. So you have proverbs in Spanish that unfortunately some of them are still uh pronounced, they are still shared nowadays among the Spanish society. Proverbs that are totally anti-Semitic, but they date back to 1603, 1605, but they are still part of the way of thinking of the people.

SPEAKER_00 36:53

I think it's like it's so helpful, and I know we're about out of time, but I like for my as I'm thinking about like closing this up, I think like one thing that I'm thinking about is like we talk, we talk in our presentations at Project Shabbad when we're not facilitating one thing that we talk about is like you can't understand the history that people carry with them by looking at them. And like you can't understand the impact of a particular event. For example, violence at a kosher restaurant or violence at a kosher supermarket or something like that, that might seem like an isolated thing or like something that's standing alone without really understanding some of this history and some of the other experiences that are informing what someone is bringing into that and how they're responding to it. And like it's just so important to understand this and the way these things are connected. Not to say that what's happening today is the Inquisition, but to say that like the ways that Jews are being identified are similar, and there are ways that Jews are, you know, are and can be identified, and places that people can find Jews and hold them accountable for stuff that they feel like they want to hold Jews accountable for that they're not accountable for, be it stuff in Israel or whatever else. And like this is a way that people are doing it, and it builds on this sort of like long history. And I think it's just really important that we name that and understand it when so that like we're not confused when people are like, wow, that violent event in my community like really bothered me in a way that's deeper than just sort of like this thing that happened. It's tapping into something much deeper in that history and that experience.

SPEAKER_02 38:25

May I add something that I really want you to talk about? Because we have been talking about Jewish restaurants and Jewish identity and you know, Israeli food and other things like this. So I was, I think, one of the most shocking moments I had in my life in relation with the food field. I mean the restaurants and everything like this, is when I was in Philadelphia. You know, you have chef Michael Salomonov, who is a James Burdoard, uh so he's very renowned and very famous person. So he is Israeli.

SPEAKER_00 38:55

So we ate at one of his restaurants a couple weeks ago, actually.

SPEAKER_02 38:58

We did, yeah. So he's a co-owner with Steve, Stephen Cook as well. So they have a lot a bunch of restaurants and Zahav and many others. Also, they have one of their restaurants, it's Goldie. Gordie, I was I was in Philadelphia at that moment at that moment when the rallies started, and they then Goldie restaurant, who is uh which is making falafel mainly and among other products, has been targeted. It was like so scary. People were totally crazy just targeting Goldie because Goldie was offering falafel and because the owners were Jewish. Yeah, I was shocked how you know this is really the the the evidence. This really proved that for people and for everybody, so for everybody, food is identity. Identity if you want to target someone, so the Goldish restaurant and their owners, they have been targeted because they were Jewish and because they were Israeli, and because they were making some food like falafel, and the the other they pretended that they stole the falafel. So, how could they just offer falafel in a restaurant and whose owners were Jewish? This is like the craziest thing I have I have just been aware of. And I think, and I I really uh loved the response of Governor Josh Shapiro from Pennsylvania, who said that it was absolutely not right and totally, you know, this was not okay at all to do like this, just to target a restaurant because of the origin or because of religion or because, you know, the culture of the owners and because of the food who was offered in this restaurant. But, you know, and for me it's like it's really, it really means a lot to me. And I think people are just coming crazy about this. And it's not a problem when other people make palafel. Okay, we can talk about palafel, we can talk about humus, we can talk about different things, but it's not a problem when other people, other non-Jewish people make phalafel and make humus. But it becomes a problem when Jewish people make phalafel and humus. And this is not fair.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

And this is just well, and I think you're I think to pull Eli's point back in that of just how um jarring that can be, of how quickly something can move to target, to target for violence, even in that one case of a restaurant. It's it's like it actually is a very jarring experience to see that and just how quickly a place can be targeted and the generational trauma, Eli, that I think you're speaking to, that that's sitting on, and it's not just in a vacuum, it's not just a one-time event, it's sitting on top of a an unfortunately very rich history. Not to mention the other, the other ways that societies can target and demonize and cause violence against um minority groups and groups that are others, othered and excluded. So it's it's um, yeah, it's an unfortunate.

SPEAKER_02 42:01

I I think we have a lot of work and we need to educate the people, and we need to just to work on it and to and to go deeper in sharing our what we know and doing some programs just to educate the person. And this is for me like the best solution for this. This is for me the only way to fix the situation. So it's gonna take a long time, but you we have to talk, we have to share, we have to just not to be uh afraid about this. And um, I think that sharing history and sharing knowledge is the best thing we can do to stop this uh, you know, this process of you know, anti-Semitism and people who do not want, uh do not know and do not want to know about Jewish history. We have to teach them because it's an endless issue.

SPEAKER_01 42:56

Yeah, and it's interesting because that's what that was gonna be one of my final points or questions to you, is because it's it's sad how in this case food being used to target, but also because food as a as a function can be such a beautiful way to connect people and such a deeply human way to connect and bring people together. And so, like, how do you see your work, not just of sharing history, but your ability to share it through food and how much further that can go or how much that can resonate with people more because it is in that food context.

SPEAKER_02 43:29

I totally agree with you. You know, doing some lectures, this is good, you know, and some sympathetic is good. But using the using food, I mean the practical side, I mean inviting people, commensality, and just inviting everybody, not only Jewish people, I mean I mean inviting, and it would be in in fact, it would be even more meaningful, you know. Invite everyone to share a meal based on history or share a meal about. Jewish culture. And if you want to come, so you will be able to see that you know they are like similar common points. I mean, food, you we have we are sharing the same food. Sometimes it's different, sometimes it's not, but anyway, just come and share and we can and we can talk. And I think food is like sitting at the table is uh the best way to start you know fixing issues about history. Because just talk and drink a bit, sometimes this helps.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Yeah, I think that's what Seder is trying to teach us, right? Invite people in, yes, talk about the food, talk about the practice.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Yeah, this is what I do um sometimes, mainly when I come to the US, they used to ask me to recreate, to create a dinner, for example, based on my research, so people can join, and we give there is a lecture, and then there is a talk, and people we are all sharing on this very uh big table, and we can, you know, and this is what I did with Chef Solomonov as well at Zahav, like one month ago. So a lot of non-Jewish people came to Zaab and they shared a Passover Sephardic Shabbat dinner, so and they were just amazed about wow, this is first, this is really good, and then it was oh well, I I really love, I really enjoyed uh the historical side of this. Um, I didn't know about this, so this is what we want. And Chef Bolslamov is so great in this. He he he knows a lot, and I think he's on the you know, he's help helping a lot for this because inviting people to share meals and dinners and commentsalities is really the best. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Alain.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Thank you, Alain.

unknown 45:51

Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

It was a nice moment.

SPEAKER_00 45:55

Thank you for listening. Translations is a production of Project Shema and is executive produced by myself, Kara A. Wilson, and Orin Jacobson. It is engineered by Nathan J. Vaughn of NJV Media. For more information about Dr. Jauhara Pinier's research, please check the show notes. Please be sure to like, listen, and subscribe anywhere you get your podcast. If you're interested in signing up for a training with Project Shema, check out our website. You can find a link also in the show notes. Thank you again for joining us, and we'll talk to you soon.